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2004 True Age Landscape

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by Rainbow on Wed May 25, 2016 7:56 pm

I agree... how long have OK clubs being trying to get a DA spot on the boys side and it just has not happened

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by ENERGYFC04 on Wed May 25, 2016 7:57 pm

Rainbow wrote:I think DA will be interesting.... the thing is that the order of the leagues will just cause SRPL and OPL to fall farther down on the list (ie DA, ECNL, USYS National League, SRPL then OPL) and with DA having teams that combine 2 years worth of players we are talking about 6 - 10 players per age group getting chance to participate so if one club in OK is lucky enough to get a DA then ECNL will still serve as the platform that provides the better opportunities for the largest number of players.  I do not think DA will be able to replace ECNL or wipe it out.  ECNL seems to be heavily supported by the college coaches.  Maybe even more so if ECNL would form their teams based on graduation year Smile

Not to be argumentative but that is wishful thinking. The move(s) to form the DA et al is purposeful. USYS is out to take back the percentage that USCLUB has taken. USYS has both the money and prestige to do this. I see them actually propping up and possibly prohibiting DA clubs from even having ECNL teams. Money makes the world go round. USYS has more of it than USCLUB along with more prestige.

As to the college coaches, they will go and support where the talent is. Whether DA, ECNL or SRPL they will be there.

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by TSC010405 on Wed May 25, 2016 7:59 pm

ENERGYFC04 wrote:
Rainbow wrote:I think DA will be interesting.... the thing is that the order of the leagues will just cause SRPL and OPL to fall farther down on the list (ie DA, ECNL, USYS National League, SRPL then OPL) and with DA having teams that combine 2 years worth of players we are talking about 6 - 10 players per age group getting chance to participate so if one club in OK is lucky enough to get a DA then ECNL will still serve as the platform that provides the better opportunities for the largest number of players.  I do not think DA will be able to replace ECNL or wipe it out.  ECNL seems to be heavily supported by the college coaches.  Maybe even more so if ECNL would form their teams based on graduation year Smile

Not to be argumentative but that is wishful thinking.   The move(s) to form the DA et al is purposeful.  USYS is out to take back the percentage that USCLUB has taken.  USYS has both the money and prestige to do this.   I see them actually propping up and possibly prohibiting DA clubs from even having ECNL teams.   Money makes the world go round.  USYS has more of it than USCLUB along with more prestige.

As to the college coaches, they will go and support where the talent is.  Whether DA, ECNL or SRPL they will be there.  


Exactly! So you think ECNL will just disappear and coaches won't go there anymore to watch kids. That is the definition of wishful thinking. And like I said above. DA won't be in OK for a while.

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by Rainbow on Wed May 25, 2016 8:04 pm

I have heard that clubs will be allowed to participate in both. We might see it soon with ECNL being offered for the boys side.

The thing with DA is that it really just for that top tier player (assuming a program has enough of those players to chose from). The teams are formed between 2 years worth of age groups. I think it will turn into the place the Div 1 programs that are in the top 50 go recruit. All of the remaining Div 1 teams and others will focus on the next tier and I believe that will be ECNL. The state of OK typically has 4 - 6 players per year per gender that go off to the very top tier programs. I know some years there are more and some years there are less. We have many more that go to the bottom 2/3rd of Div 1, Div2 etc.... programs

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by ENERGYFC04 on Wed May 25, 2016 8:05 pm

TSC010405 wrote:
ENERGYFC04 wrote:
Rainbow wrote:I think DA will be interesting.... the thing is that the order of the leagues will just cause SRPL and OPL to fall farther down on the list (ie DA, ECNL, USYS National League, SRPL then OPL) and with DA having teams that combine 2 years worth of players we are talking about 6 - 10 players per age group getting chance to participate so if one club in OK is lucky enough to get a DA then ECNL will still serve as the platform that provides the better opportunities for the largest number of players.  I do not think DA will be able to replace ECNL or wipe it out.  ECNL seems to be heavily supported by the college coaches.  Maybe even more so if ECNL would form their teams based on graduation year Smile

Not to be argumentative but that is wishful thinking.   The move(s) to form the DA et al is purposeful.  USYS is out to take back the percentage that USCLUB has taken.  USYS has both the money and prestige to do this.   I see them actually propping up and possibly prohibiting DA clubs from even having ECNL teams.   Money makes the world go round.  USYS has more of it than USCLUB along with more prestige.

As to the college coaches, they will go and support where the talent is.  Whether DA, ECNL or SRPL they will be there.  


Exactly!  So you think ECNL will just disappear and coaches won't go there anymore to watch kids.  That is the definition of wishful thinking.  And like I said above.  DA won't be in OK for a while.

Never said it will disappear.  What i will say is that its more probable than not that ECNL loses some if not much of its luster in the coming year or two.   Make no mistake, USYS is trying to take back what they lost and they have the money and prestige to do it.   Follow the money.

If i had a crystal ball i could see USYS even requiring DA clubs to drop their ECNL affiliation - even if they are not saying that now.   This is not a kumbaya thing with USCLUB and USYS.   Its a business thing.    USYS much more powerful than USCLUB.   In the business world the sharks eat the minnows.   In this instance, a bunch of minnows (USCLUB) have grouped together and formed a great product.   Problem is in doing so they took away some food from the big bad shark who has decided enough is enough.

I've been wrong before but this seems business 101 to me.

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by Rainbow on Wed May 25, 2016 8:07 pm

Then they can always form a Texans USYS with its own management and a Texans US Club with its own management Smile

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by ENERGYFC04 on Wed May 25, 2016 8:11 pm

Rainbow wrote:Then they can always form a Texans USYS with its own management and a Texans US Club with its own management Smile
. Won't work. The shell game of registering some here and some there will come to an end. Years ago USCLUB came in and has tried to take Oklahoma clubs with promise of less oversight. There model is great for ECNL, maybe doable for rec but completely hogwash for an overal competitive program. You got to have rules and expectations. This is what USYS provides. USYS is not that stupid to allow things like that to occur.


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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by ENERGYFC04 on Wed May 25, 2016 8:13 pm

I have no desire to bash ECNL etc right now. That said, I think it's prudent as a parent to look beyond marketing that clubs and USCLUB is providing right now. There is a reason there implementing these changes. Why? The monopoly is about to be abolished

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by ENERGYFC04 on Wed May 25, 2016 8:14 pm

Also. Good luck to those teams. I mean this with sincerity that I hope it's all its hyped to be.

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by Rainbow on Wed May 25, 2016 8:17 pm

You do not think USYS is that stupid????

They chose not to offer anything on the girls side when DA was rolled out for the boys and it too them how long to see there was a market for it?

The point of what they did for the boys was to improve the MNT quality of play... Did the MNT qualify for the Olympics?  I think we also missed playing in some of the younger World Cup events also so not sure they are really getting what they wanted out of the DA program.

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by ENERGYFC04 on Wed May 25, 2016 8:22 pm

Rainbow.  So your saying that USYS missed the girls boat so they should just throw in the towel?   Under that guise microsoft et al would never exist as Apple had rights to the personal computer.   The world is full of examples of someone having a great idea, showing its marketable only to see he with the golden egg come in and take it over.  

As to improving boys play i think your reaching and comparing apples and oranges.  The success of our MNT is a red herring that has nothing to do with this discussion. I could argue that ECNL hasn't made our womens team better as most of those players have been around long before ECNL existed.   I've never said this is about making play or players better.  Its about money.  

My opinions are not based on whats best, what develops best or really anything soccer related. My opinions, questions and/or reservations and interest in the future is based upon what businesses do.  Soccer is a very big business.  Again, follow the money.

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by Rainbow on Wed May 25, 2016 8:28 pm

I am not saying they should throw in the towel on it I am just saying that if they where not smart enough to figure out there was a market on the women's side for a number of years then when you made the statement that USYS is to smart to let something happen I was just point to an example of where they where not that smart.

Also the move to DA I believe was part of the change to improve the player pool that is looked at for the MNT and if that is the case then I question why hasn't it helped our men's program improve.

I think ECNL serves a different purpose and that was to help create a league that would include 80% or so of the players that college programs would be interested in so that they could more easily evaluate and see players and to a large extent it seems like US Club has been successful at that when you look at the stats around the percentage of players playing ECNL that wind up continuing to play in college.

The fact that they serve a different purpose and what they have been offering seems to have been well received by the colleges is why I do not think that USYS can make it go away.

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by The Soccer 1% on Wed May 25, 2016 8:38 pm

ECNL/DA are Pepsi/Coke. The WNT is relatively better than the MNT because, across the world, women don't have access to competitive sports on the scale that they do in the US, imho.

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by TSC010405 on Wed May 25, 2016 8:59 pm

The Soccer 1% wrote:ECNL/DA are Pepsi/Coke.  The WNT is relatively better than the MNT because, across the world, women don't have access to competitive sports on the scale that they do in the US, imho.  

Oh Yeah! All those third world countries like Germany, England, Japan, China, Russia where they don't play sports. Are you kidding me. Have you ever traveled outside the US?

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by Rainbow on Wed May 25, 2016 9:01 pm

I agree on the WNT and we have seen other countries start to catch us on the WNT side. My point is DA was supposed to help the MNT catch up and it does not seem to be accomplishing that so I struggle with adopting an approach where the success of that program is questionable.

I do not think it was intended to be what ECNL is for the girls side. That is why I believe that when DA happens on the girls side and I doubt OK gets a DA team in 2017 so ECNL will continue to be the highest option for OK based players. Even if one club in OK gets a DA spot then you will see about 8 players from each birth year across the state removed from the OK systems and ECNL will continue to be a good place for the majority of players that want to play Div 1 or top level Div 2 soccer to be seen by coaches.

It is possible that USYS pulls off Women's DA and shows it is the better option (say 2 - 3 years)and then over time (another 2 - 3 years) can re-establish USYS National League as the better option. So lets say 4 years to pull this off.... the 2004s will be U14 in the fall 2017 (when DA comes into play) and in 2021 they will be U18. Guess what most to all programs that are watching DA, ECNL/USYS National League have already spent their money on this age group on the girls side so it will not matter to this age group.

So if you have a 2008 player or younger then you might want to watch how this goes and how the different clubs adapt to the changes so that your daughter is the program that matches her goals.

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by 918soccer on Wed May 25, 2016 9:02 pm

I can understand the concerns and even frustrations with ECNL not being available to more girls in the state but overall I think it has done wonders for girls soccer. If DA becomes available in OK I can only hope that it has just as much of an impact on girls soccer as ECNL.

Regarding the new JR ECNL League, I don't see it as a marketing gimmick or an evil agenda by the clubs involved to advertise a better developmental program. I believe the Texas clubs formed this new league for one reason, to advance development in the age groups leading up to ECNL. Some of the leagues in Texas are just as bad as OPL, so I can see how this will be beneficial to all of the teams and players involved.


Last edited by 918soccer on Wed May 25, 2016 9:05 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by The Soccer 1% on Wed May 25, 2016 9:16 pm

TSC010405 wrote:
The Soccer 1% wrote:ECNL/DA are Pepsi/Coke.  The WNT is relatively better than the MNT because, across the world, women don't have access to competitive sports on the scale that they do in the US, imho.  

Oh Yeah!  All those third world countries like Germany, England, Japan, China, Russia where they don't play sports.  Are you kidding me.  Have you ever traveled outside the US?  
Boys across the world play soccer. They don't play football, basketball, baseball, etc. like our kids do. They mostly play soccer. That's why our men's team is not relatively as good. If we had Lebron, Russell Westbrook, Adrian Peterson, etc. playing soccer from birth, we'd be better at soccer. Women around the world don't play organized sports like they do here in the US. Hell, minority women don't access competitive sports like their white counterparts in the US. That's what the research says on both topics. That's why my kid's soccer coach came to the US from Europe, because women's soccer is more advanced here. Men's soccer is more advanced there. Facts, yo!

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by Rainbow on Wed May 25, 2016 9:26 pm

I agree some of our best athletes wind up in other sports but our MNT struggles to compete with countries that have much smaller populations so on a percentage of the population basis it would be interesting to see that. If .01 percent of the population is a true elite athlete what percentage of that winds up playing soccer in the US and how does that compare in actually numbers to available top athletes from countries with smaller populations. In this case we are assuming that the right opportunies are in place to turn our top athletes into players that are smart and skillful along with being athletic.

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by redcard on Wed May 25, 2016 10:01 pm

Soccer 1% is on point about the other professional sports.

TSCH will align themselves where they need to be for ECNL and the DA. They have been successful bc they are constantly preparing for the future of the club rather than being reactive. The leaders of the club are constantly working in new concepts, ideas, and growth. At the end of the day whether you hate or love TSCH they are proactive in giving the players oppurtunities to all level of players


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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by The Soccer 1% on Wed May 25, 2016 10:04 pm

redcard wrote:Soccer 1% is on point about the other professional sports.

TSCH will align themselves where they need to be for ECNL and the DA. They have been successful bc they are constantly preparing for the future of the club rather than being reactive. The leaders of the club are constantly working in new concepts, ideas, and growth. At the end of the day whether you hate or love TSCH they are proactive in giving the players oppurtunities to all level of players

I agree with you. If I had a future star, I'd be driving my butt to TSC. If I lived in Tulsa I'd probably be there if my kid was wanting to just play basic soccer like we play in the sticks. I don't think they price gouge and I think they do a good job of trying to be all things to all people, and that's difficult. I DO NOT like some of their uses of the CPP thing but I think that's a coaching thing and not a club thing.

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by redcard on Wed May 25, 2016 10:25 pm

Soccer 1% is on point about the other professional sports.

TSCH will align themselves where they need to be for ECNL and the DA. They have been successful bc they are constantly preparing for the future of the club rather than being reactive. The leaders of the club are constantly working in new concepts, ideas, and growth. At the end of the day whether you hate or love TSCH they are proactive in giving the players oppurtunities to all level of players

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by ENERGYFC04 on Wed May 25, 2016 11:52 pm

redcard wrote:Soccer 1% is on point about the other professional sports.

TSCH will align themselves where they need to be for ECNL and the DA. They have been successful bc they are constantly preparing for the future of the club rather than being reactive. The leaders of the club are constantly working in new concepts, ideas, and growth. At the end of the day whether you hate or love TSCH they are proactive in giving the players oppurtunities to all level of players
I'm on the other side of the state but I give TSC credit for being forward thinking. My hope is my side of the state (with a larger metro) will head more than direction from a business standpoint.

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by Keeper on Thu May 26, 2016 12:33 am

TSC doesn't sit on the side line and wait to see where things fall. West side clubs should take note of their structure on decision making. Energy is that the difference in a parent based board and a non parent based board? Should west side look to switch??

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by ENERGYFC04 on Thu May 26, 2016 1:49 pm

Keeper:

I haven't really decided. There are things that TSC does really well. I do think in terms of the ECNL et al they were very proactive. I also think they do an incredible job marketing to their parents and those in the Tulsa area.

With the above said, I also do think TSC engages in smoke and mirrors and things aren't quite what they make them to be. They do a good job sometimes of building up their teams by avoiding certain situations.

Truthfully, i think there is little difference between them and OFC. TSC is maybe slightly bigger but should OFC adapt the right business model they could accomplish what TSC has. If SLSC and Norman combine they could be right there in terms of numbers and quality.

At the end of the day i don't think as it pertains to individuals that developmentally TSC is offering that much more, in any, than OFC, Blitz, SLSC and Norman. They are winning more because they have more numbers. That simple. In my mind there is very little difference between the top TSC teams and other top teams 1 - 11. The difference lies with 12 - 16 which makes it a numbers game.

At the end of the day, soccer comes down to skills, speed and numbers. A shiny new complex or new terms to describe an age old training method does not equate to more touches, better skills or more speed. It may make getting those things easier for the parents (one may be centrally located whereas a west sider might have to drive different places to get the training). In the end its still who decides on their off training days to get out and work. TSC right now has the numbers. I think its that simple.

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Re: 2004 True Age Landscape

Post by Bundesliga on Thu May 26, 2016 2:26 pm

The propaganda I have read here lately is calamitous. There are some authentic posts, but too many are FALLACIOUS. Please understand that ECNL is a great opportunity, but research indicates the younger players (especially Pre/Jr Ecnl & younger) improve more rapidly via educated training rather than a league. Also, a youth coaches prestige should not be determined by his win/loss record. Historically, our clubs have overlooked development in pursuit of a "W" at these ages. Therefore, our clubs are business before development and the parents lack of education enable this destructive system. It's important to TRAIN WITH A COACH, rather than be trained by a club. The literature is out there to educate yourselves. Produce an educated decision for your child this year and sign with a coach...not a club.

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