OPL WEEK OF November 3-9

Sorry I shoulda clarified: refs didn't impact result of game. They just could have done much better. Super physical as usual, which is to be expected. All these girls know they'll be competing for spots eventually so nobody wants to back down. Good game.

Any commentary on the OFC\SLSC game. Score looks like OFC took it to them.

soccerschmuck wrote:Any commentary on the OFC\SLSC game. Score looks like OFC took it to them.

SLSC was down 3 starters this weekend for both games due to injury. Bad weekend to have the injury bug hit you. They fought pretty well against Winters but the gap was just too much versus a motivated NOKC team.

Good showing by OFC this weekend. Ultimately, they will end up be a very strong team... may already be there.
Blitz Navy/Blitz not posted yet, but assume Blitz won big. Blitz only has 4 games left. The losses at the beginning will hurt their final standings despite their recent improvement.
SLSC rough weekend. I think they are in injury zone right now. Will hurt final standings?
Winters mixed weekend...Also only 4 games left, but could end up, if everything went right, with 33 points. Still have OFC and Kitterman on schedule, but other two games should be a win, so they will end up fairly well.
Kitterman good weekend with only 1 game. Still has 8 games to play. Still favorite to win league. Offense has to show up, though, but may be coming out of scoring slump if number of attempted shots is a measure.
Good soccer weekend, overall!

Good weekend of soccer.  Some cooled off, one kept on winning and one found injuries to contribute to their losses (I do wish the girls fast healing)

Looks like OFC vs Winters game will decide 2nd.  

Have a few weeks of inactivity outside of Blitz vs Clinton and the lackluster Norman tournament.  

This is all very entertaining reading I have to say.  There are some direct hits on here.   I'm going to throw my 1 cent thought in. I think Kitterman is over-rated. I've watched them play. Very strong team but they barely beat Winters this weekend. 1 point?  Granted it's 1 point Winter's didn't have so a win is a win.  Word has it that it was a good shot that got past their keeper after several bad calls by the ref in Kitterman's favor.  True or sour grapes, who knows but it counts.  Word also has it that the coach was calling for a yellow card 10 on that player seconds after the game started and thought is the ref finally caved.     Does that happen?  Will a ref back down to a coach?  If so, let's all start calling for it during the games!  Yet his players are known for their aggressiveness and somewhat underhanded tactics - such as standing directly in front of opposing players, putting their hands behind their backs and grabbing the opposing girls jerseys - just out of sight of the refs, etc.  If they are getting away with it more power to them.  I guess.  Winters team may have finally stepped up and shown some aggression and if so kuddos to them.  Let's see more of it.  But I have a hard time believing that Kitterman's team wasn't doing the exact same thing given the history of these teams.  Come on.  This one game they decide to play nice?  Doubtful.  It's also not rocket science to know Kitterman's team rescheduled the Clinton games to know how many points they needed to put themselves in first place going into state cup.     So much so, I've overheard one of their parent's talking smugly about it.  Which is pretty underhanded given this is a team obviously out of their league.  However, very strategic so they certainly deserve credit there.  Kuddos to them as well for thinking of it and for meeting in a central location while the rest of the teams were all idiots and drove distance to play them like the league designated them to.  And playing a weak team back to back.  No telling what the score of that second game will be once they are already defeated, playing their last  games of the season and just want their misery to end.  Talk about kicking them while they are down.  It will be interesting to see what kind of sportsmanship is displayed during those games.  Question - When did they reschedule those games?  Wasn't it after the season started?  I believe it was.  So then one has to ask, did they see what the other teams were bringing to the table and they got a little nervous, wanted to ensure they had some cushion for 1st place?  Did Winters team make them nervous about their play since it seems based on these threads and what their parents have told me - there are Kitterman parents at A LOT of their games.  Interesting thought isn't it.  I don't know about you but I don't really have time to sit around and travel to other teams games so I can watch them play.  Someone told me one of the Kitterman parents drove out to one of their games just to watch Winters play.  Really?

Kitterman tied SLSC, which Winters has beaten twice now.  Kitterman has only beaten Blitz by 1.  I just think it's anyone's lead at this point.  OFC is very aggressive but only beat Winters by 1.  However, they could powerhouse them when they play on home turf and likely will.  OFC has beaten Blitz twice this year.  More than Winters team can say.  OFC has the aggression and doesn't back down.  Blitz also dominated Winter's last game against them I heard.  SLSC I think has a few key players that give them a showing this year but I think will they will develop over time and be a fair contender.  Winters team needs to figure out who can put the ball in the net.  That's their biggest weakness.  Their defense carries them but they can't sustain the entire game.  They have some speed though and the team has appeared more in sync than they did in the last year.  Still not sure they can consistently put it together, we'll see against OFC and the 2nd Kitterman game.  

So Kitterman will end up at the top of the list due to strategic planning.   I still won't agree that they are the best.  If they were, they would be dominating these games, not winning by 1 or resulting in a tie.  Nor do I think they have the best overall players. To say that any of these teams have consistently the best overall team I think is a little premature based off of one season. If there was a team consistently blowing all the other teams out of the water, I would then say that they are the best.  

I do like that Kitterman puts his team in tournaments and games that challenge them. Which is funny considering Winters team wasted their efforts - I mean spent their time going to Springfield and Memphis.  I think those are the decisions that set those two teams apart.  On the flip side, I'm a little hesitant to trust the boasting that comes as a result of playing in Texas, etc.  I think it's safe to say that we all want our picture taken on our good side, not our bad side. Are these games/tournaments really what they say they are or do they just make them look good?   Maybe I too am biased against Kitterman?  As I type this I realize that perhaps I am?  But honestly,  I'm just not convinced they are the best team at this point.  I truly believe it's anyone's game.  It might seem I'm a little pro Winters after reviewing this post but I'm not.  I do feel they are a team that is consistently being dismissed however.  And when you look at their record, it's not a blowout in favor of Kitterman - well, except for their last Blitz game. That certainly showed weakness.  But none of them are and THAT'S my point.  

All of this makes me glad that my DD isn't playing competitive.  We enjoy soccer and the sportsmanship that comes from being on a team that doesn't have this intensity.  It keeps it fun for her.  (This is where the speculation begins - did my DD not make one of the teams? Is that why I'm bitter, I am angry that she isn't playing.)  That is not the case.  Could she play on these teams?  No probably not.  She has other interests that she enjoys and soccer is a fun recreational sport for her.  But I'm not sure I want her to given how I've heard they treat each other and that's why I'm happy where we are at.  

Really I think it all depends on these 10 year olds that now have this tremendous pressure put on them to win thus allowing their parents to go out on the forum and boast about how their team is number one and all the rest are subpar.  I say good luck to them all! I hope they all stay healthy and injury free.  I hope they are all continuing to develop as young soccer players.  I hope they are learning to love the game and are still enjoying the sport that their parents are likely spending their college tuition on and quite possibly going to burn them out on before they reach 15.  This may have been posted on the wrong thread but after reading all of these today I have to admit that they all started to run together.  Anyhow, let the commentary begin as I expect it will.

Great stuff! So, let me be clear, you don't have a daughter that plays competitive, but you've been to a number of games AND type novel length entries on a competitive soccer forum that deals with 10 year old soccer players?

I know right! Told you my opinion might only be worth 1 cent but it's out there. Truth too close to home?

And to clarify I don't think I stated I had been to games. Perhaps I'm merely well connected and hear a lot of stories. It's really all just opinion as the rest of the posts are.

Is it your opinion that it's dirty to stand in front of opposing players? To just take one point out of many in a long post....
Also. I believe Clinton called and asked us to reschedule and then insisted on playing both games after a mutually convenient place to play was chosen... We tried to make it one game only. So that covers about a fourth of your post!

oksoccer wrote:Good weekend of soccer.  Some cooled off, one kept on winning and one found injuries to contribute to their losses (I do wish the girls fast healing)

Looks like OFC vs Winters game will decide 2nd.   

Have a few weeks of inactivity outside of Blitz vs Clinton and the lackluster Norman tournament.  

Oh good grief. I say probably 10 things this weekend and you pull out "one found injuries to contribute". That was a direct response to a question that was asked about a disparity in score. Some parents amaze me...

itsyouthsoccer wrote:This is all very entertaining reading I have to say.  There are some direct hits on here.   I'm going to throw my 1 cent thought in. I think Kitterman is over-rated. I've watched them play. Very strong team but they barely beat Winters this weekend. 1 point?  Granted it's 1 point Winter's didn't have so a win is a win.  Word has it that it was a good shot that got past their keeper after several bad calls by the ref in Kitterman's favor.  True or sour grapes, who knows but it counts.  Word also has it that the coach was calling for a yellow card 10 on that player seconds after the game started and thought is the ref finally caved.     Does that happen?  Will a ref back down to a coach?  If so, let's all start calling for it during the games!  Yet his players are known for their aggressiveness and somewhat underhanded tactics - such as standing directly in front of opposing players, putting their hands behind their backs and grabbing the opposing girls jerseys - just out of sight of the refs, etc.  If they are getting away with it more power to them.  I guess.  Winters team may have finally stepped up and shown some aggression and if so kuddos to them.  Let's see more of it.  But I have a hard time believing that Kitterman's team wasn't doing the exact same thing given the history of these teams.  Come on.  This one game they decide to play nice?  Doubtful.  It's also not rocket science to know Kitterman's team rescheduled the Clinton games to know how many points they needed to put themselves in first place going into state cup.     So much so, I've overheard one of their parent's talking smugly about it.  Which is pretty underhanded given this is a team obviously out of their league.  However, very strategic so they certainly deserve credit there.  Kuddos to them as well for thinking of it and for meeting in a central location while the rest of the teams were all idiots and drove distance to play them like the league designated them to.  And playing a weak team back to back.  No telling what the score of that second game will be once they are already defeated, playing their last  games of the season and just want their misery to end.  Talk about kicking them while they are down.  It will be interesting to see what kind of sportsmanship is displayed during those games.  Question - When did they reschedule those games?  Wasn't it after the season started?  I believe it was.  So then one has to ask, did they see what the other teams were bringing to the table and they got a little nervous, wanted to ensure they had some cushion for 1st place?  Did Winters team make them nervous about their play since it seems based on these threads and what their parents have told me - there are Kitterman parents at A LOT of their games.  Interesting thought isn't it.  I don't know about you but I don't really have time to sit around and travel to other teams games so I can watch them play.  Someone told me one of the Kitterman parents drove out to one of their games just to watch Winters play.  Really?

Kitterman tied SLSC, which Winters has beaten twice now.  Kitterman has only beaten Blitz by 1.  I just think it's anyone's lead at this point.  OFC is very aggressive but only beat Winters by 1.  However, they could powerhouse them when they play on home turf and likely will.  OFC has beaten Blitz twice this year.  More than Winters team can say.  OFC has the aggression and doesn't back down.  Blitz also dominated Winter's last game against them I heard.  SLSC I think has a few key players that give them a showing this year but I think will they will develop over time and be a fair contender.  Winters team needs to figure out who can put the ball in the net.  That's their biggest weakness.  Their defense carries them but they can't sustain the entire game.  They have some speed though and the team has appeared more in sync than they did in the last year.  Still not sure they can consistently put it together, we'll see against OFC and the 2nd Kitterman game.  

So Kitterman will end up at the top of the list due to strategic planning.   I still won't agree that they are the best.  If they were, they would be dominating these games, not winning by 1 or resulting in a tie.  Nor do I think they have the best overall players. To say that any of these teams have consistently the best overall team I think is a little premature based off of one season. If there was a team consistently blowing all the other teams out of the water, I would then say that they are the best.  

I do like that Kitterman puts his team in tournaments and games that challenge them. Which is funny considering Winters team wasted their efforts - I mean spent their time going to Springfield and Memphis.  I think those are the decisions that set those two teams apart.  On the flip side, I'm a little hesitant to trust the boasting that comes as a result of playing in Texas, etc.  I think it's safe to say that we all want our picture taken on our good side, not our bad side. Are these games/tournaments really what they say they are or do they just make them look good?   Maybe I too am biased against Kitterman?  As I type this I realize that perhaps I am?  But honestly,  I'm just not convinced they are the best team at this point.  I truly believe it's anyone's game.  It might seem I'm a little pro Winters after reviewing this post but I'm not.  I do feel they are a team that is consistently being dismissed however.  And when you look at their record, it's not a blowout in favor of Kitterman - well, except for their last Blitz game. That certainly showed weakness.  But none of them are and THAT'S my point.  

All of this makes me glad that my DD isn't playing competitive.  We enjoy soccer and the sportsmanship that comes from being on a team that doesn't have this intensity.  It keeps it fun for her.  (This is where the speculation begins - did my DD not make one of the teams? Is that why I'm bitter, I am angry that she isn't playing.)  That is not the case.  Could she play on these teams?  No probably not.  She has other interests that she enjoys and soccer is a fun recreational sport for her.  But I'm not sure I want her to given how I've heard they treat each other and that's why I'm happy where we are at.  

Really I think it all depends on these 10 year olds that now have this tremendous pressure put on them to win thus allowing their parents to go out on the forum and boast about how their team is number one and all the rest are subpar.  I say good luck to them all! I hope they all stay healthy and injury free.  I hope they are all continuing to develop as young soccer players.  I hope they are learning to love the game and are still enjoying the sport that their parents are likely spending their college tuition on and quite possibly going to burn them out on before they reach 15.  This may have been posted on the wrong thread but after reading all of these today I have to admit that they all started to run together.  Anyhow, let the commentary begin as I expect it will.

Post revised

Trojan wrote:

itsyouthsoccer wrote:This is all very entertaining reading I have to say.  There are some direct hits on here.   I'm going to throw my 1 cent thought in. I think Kitterman is over-rated. I've watched them play. Very strong team but they barely beat Winters this weekend. 1 point?  Granted it's 1 point Winter's didn't have so a win is a win.  Word has it that it was a good shot that got past their keeper after several bad calls by the ref in Kitterman's favor.  True or sour grapes, who knows but it counts.  Word also has it that the coach was calling for a yellow card 10 on that player seconds after the game started and thought is the ref finally caved.     Does that happen?  Will a ref back down to a coach?  If so, let's all start calling for it during the games!  Yet his players are known for their aggressiveness and somewhat underhanded tactics - such as standing directly in front of opposing players, putting their hands behind their backs and grabbing the opposing girls jerseys - just out of sight of the refs, etc.  If they are getting away with it more power to them.  I guess.  Winters team may have finally stepped up and shown some aggression and if so kuddos to them.  Let's see more of it.  But I have a hard time believing that Kitterman's team wasn't doing the exact same thing given the history of these teams.  Come on.  This one game they decide to play nice?  Doubtful.  It's also not rocket science to know Kitterman's team rescheduled the Clinton games to know how many points they needed to put themselves in first place going into state cup.     So much so, I've overheard one of their parent's talking smugly about it.  Which is pretty underhanded given this is a team obviously out of their league.  However, very strategic so they certainly deserve credit there.  Kuddos to them as well for thinking of it and for meeting in a central location while the rest of the teams were all idiots and drove distance to play them like the league designated them to.  And playing a weak team back to back.  No telling what the score of that second game will be once they are already defeated, playing their last  games of the season and just want their misery to end.  Talk about kicking them while they are down.  It will be interesting to see what kind of sportsmanship is displayed during those games.  Question - When did they reschedule those games?  Wasn't it after the season started?  I believe it was.  So then one has to ask, did they see what the other teams were bringing to the table and they got a little nervous, wanted to ensure they had some cushion for 1st place?  Did Winters team make them nervous about their play since it seems based on these threads and what their parents have told me - there are Kitterman parents at A LOT of their games.  Interesting thought isn't it.  I don't know about you but I don't really have time to sit around and travel to other teams games so I can watch them play.  Someone told me one of the Kitterman parents drove out to one of their games just to watch Winters play.  Really?

Kitterman tied SLSC, which Winters has beaten twice now.  Kitterman has only beaten Blitz by 1.  I just think it's anyone's lead at this point.  OFC is very aggressive but only beat Winters by 1.  However, they could powerhouse them when they play on home turf and likely will.  OFC has beaten Blitz twice this year.  More than Winters team can say.  OFC has the aggression and doesn't back down.  Blitz also dominated Winter's last game against them I heard.  SLSC I think has a few key players that give them a showing this year but I think will they will develop over time and be a fair contender.  Winters team needs to figure out who can put the ball in the net.  That's their biggest weakness.  Their defense carries them but they can't sustain the entire game.  They have some speed though and the team has appeared more in sync than they did in the last year.  Still not sure they can consistently put it together, we'll see against OFC and the 2nd Kitterman game.  

So Kitterman will end up at the top of the list due to strategic planning.   I still won't agree that they are the best.  If they were, they would be dominating these games, not winning by 1 or resulting in a tie.  Nor do I think they have the best overall players. To say that any of these teams have consistently the best overall team I think is a little premature based off of one season. If there was a team consistently blowing all the other teams out of the water, I would then say that they are the best.  

I do like that Kitterman puts his team in tournaments and games that challenge them. Which is funny considering Winters team wasted their efforts - I mean spent their time going to Springfield and Memphis.  I think those are the decisions that set those two teams apart.  On the flip side, I'm a little hesitant to trust the boasting that comes as a result of playing in Texas, etc.  I think it's safe to say that we all want our picture taken on our good side, not our bad side. Are these games/tournaments really what they say they are or do they just make them look good?   Maybe I too am biased against Kitterman?  As I type this I realize that perhaps I am?  But honestly,  I'm just not convinced they are the best team at this point.  I truly believe it's anyone's game.  It might seem I'm a little pro Winters after reviewing this post but I'm not.  I do feel they are a team that is consistently being dismissed however.  And when you look at their record, it's not a blowout in favor of Kitterman - well, except for their last Blitz game. That certainly showed weakness.  But none of them are and THAT'S my point.  

All of this makes me glad that my DD isn't playing competitive.  We enjoy soccer and the sportsmanship that comes from being on a team that doesn't have this intensity.  It keeps it fun for her.  (This is where the speculation begins - did my DD not make one of the teams? Is that why I'm bitter, I am angry that she isn't playing.)  That is not the case.  Could she play on these teams?  No probably not.  She has other interests that she enjoys and soccer is a fun recreational sport for her.  But I'm not sure I want her to given how I've heard they treat each other and that's why I'm happy where we are at.  

Really I think it all depends on these 10 year olds that now have this tremendous pressure put on them to win thus allowing their parents to go out on the forum and boast about how their team is number one and all the rest are subpar.  I say good luck to them all! I hope they all stay healthy and injury free.  I hope they are all continuing to develop as young soccer players.  I hope they are learning to love the game and are still enjoying the sport that their parents are likely spending their college tuition on and quite possibly going to burn them out on before they reach 15.  This may have been posted on the wrong thread but after reading all of these today I have to admit that they all started to run together.  Anyhow, let the commentary begin as I expect it will.

So if you are to be believed, you don't have any kids on any competitive teams, including Winters team.  You don't see any games and yet you are stupid enough to spout your worthless book-sized opinion here.  That makes you sound like a child predator.  How do you know so much about the Kitterman team? and WHY ON EARTH ARE YOU SO CONCERNED.  If all that is really true, then you need a life badly.

OR, you are lying and you do have a kid playing for Winters, which is why you are so opinionated, biased and JEALOUS.  Stop worrying about our team and stop making countless excuses for every time you lose.  Its very sad.

Child Predator? I would watch yourself Trojan. The only team that has been known to come to other teams practices and games is your team. That is fact. Most of the people I talk to from Tulsa Clubs do consider this to be a little creepy, but nobody calls you out to be a child predator. Even though this poster made it clear that their info came from being 'in the know' (which we all know there are people that know a lot of stuff by knowing a lot of people...) I think they are a winters parent. But to call them a child predator and to be called Opinionated, Biased and Jealous? I think someone hit a nerve. I found most of what this poster said to be quite funny and spot on.... again, I think they hit a nerve. Just sit back and take your 1st place U11 OPL win by a margin quietly. If you were blowing teams away it would be different. but you are not.

Still just wondering why a person with no daughter playing in competitive or even watched any games would even bother to be on this forum, much less make such a post. Otherwise, they are lying. Both are pretty sad.

Trojan wrote:Still just wondering why a person with no daughter playing in competitive or even watched any games would even bother to be on this forum, much less make such a post.  Otherwise, they are lying.  Both are pretty sad.  

I am not disagreeing with you, but there could be another answer. There are people that have had kids in this age group, that want them back in - or they are just lying. Either way, anyone who takes the time to be on this forum in the first place, myself included, could be considered "sad." Think of the moderator.. no offense 004tulsa, but really - how does he know so much? Do you really think the moderator has kids of both genders in almost every age group? I highly doubt it.

Unless there are a bunch of women lying to me I've got 4 girls on Carreno 05; 2 on Blitz 04 & 1 boy each year from 04-08 @ TSC.

Maybe not. I have an 06 boy & an 04 girl...no secret there. Each of whom has guest played across clubs and ages, playing up & with teams who play up. I'd venture that each of my kids did more guest playing than some kids do on their own teams.

I'm first to admit I am weak when it comes to knowing about competitive; but I'm pretty knowledgeable when it come to academy teams in OK.

I think it's possible that he/she likes soccer...how many people on here go to watch HS football in OK? Jenks & Union must have 1000s of folks watching boys they aren't related to.

But it is interesting that they would find this forum (b/c let's be honest not too many have), & post on the forum.

& moderator hat on...the predator comment was a bit much. Take the time to state your thoughts in a better manner next time.

& the reason I know so much is because every coach in the state tells me their plans ahead of time, just to get my OK. Or maybe it's because I'm The Most Interesting Man in the World...

You 04 parents really bring the crazy -- however, you are probably singlehandedly keeping this site going and the nuttiness on display is often entertaining.  However unusual the long post was, it is pretty ironic that someone here plays the child predator card when some 04 parent actually decided to create a thread called "04 Girls Hotlist (Players to watch)", which discusses talented athletic 11 year old girls.  Sadly, it is longer than this thread.

004 Tulsa, probably right, poor choice of words. What I should've said is "you just created a new account today, posted a book-long review about a team you've never seen play and don't have a daughter playing competitive, interesting.

Wow! There was a lot said in the previous posts. Considering how some of the previous posts went, wanted to think on them before posting.

Look, I'll always have a problem saying a player or team is dirty, especially if I haven't seen it for myself. What some may say is dirty, I may call aggressive. I am no way defending dirty play or a team. However, what I am saying is, I have a biased perspective sometimes when I see things with my OWN eyes. Let alone stating something as if it is fact, based on another's biased perspective. We have plenty, I mean plenty, of opinions in this forum that are based on what people feel they know or have seen. So should any of us really slam or say bad things about another team when we haven't seen it ourselves?

Let me be clear, I am a proud blitz parent. I really have no reason to defend Kitterman or Winters. However, I just would hope we all put some thought into what we post before hitting send. I try to say nothing on here, i wouldn't say to another teams parent if they were standing right in front of me. Is that true for everyone?

Lastly, if Kitterman parents are honest, as of now, they are not a dominant team. However, to say they aren't really good or the best, isn't being honest. Of The 8 teams in our group, who has no losses?

As a proud blitz parent, it suuuuuuuuuucccccckkkkks they are the best right now. However, when (and yes I said when :-)) we beat them, I don't want it said we beat an overrated, so so team. That's why you give credit when it's do. So when it's time to get yours, it's not diminished.

Can we just give our opinions and even debate? But let's keep it on the up and up. If you feel so strongly about how dirty a team is, let them know when you SEE them. Be 10 ft tall in real life, not just under an alias in a forum.

04eastside wrote:Wow!   There was a lot said in the previous posts.   Considering how some of the previous posts went,  wanted to think on them before posting.

Look,  I'll always have a problem saying a player or team is dirty, especially if I haven't seen it for myself.   What some may say is dirty,  I may call aggressive.  I am no way defending dirty play or a team.  However,  what I am saying is, I have a biased perspective sometimes when I see things with my OWN eyes.   Let alone stating something as if it is fact, based on another's biased perspective. We have plenty,  I mean plenty, of opinions in this forum that are based on what people feel they know or have seen.   So should any of us really slam or say bad things about another team when we haven't seen it ourselves?

Let me be clear,  I am a proud blitz parent.   I really have no reason to defend Kitterman or Winters.  However, I just would hope we all put some thought into what we post before hitting send.   I try to say nothing on here,  i wouldn't say to another teams parent if they were standing right in front of me.  Is that true for everyone?

Lastly, if Kitterman parents are honest, as of now, they are not a dominant team.   However,  to say they aren't really good or the best, isn't being honest.   Of The 8 teams in our group,  who has no losses?

As a proud blitz parent,  it suuuuuuuuuucccccckkkkks they are the best right now.   However,  when (and yes I said when :-)) we beat them, I don't want it said we beat an overrated,  so so team.   That's why you give credit when it's do.  So when it's time to get yours, it's not diminished.  

Can we just give our opinions and even debate?   But let's keep it on the up and up.  If you feel so strongly about how dirty a team is, let them know when you SEE them.   Be 10 ft tall in real life,  not just under an alias in a forum.

Well said, other than the "when" part.

This forum makes me want to watch winters/kitterman play! Well, just to watch the parents.