best 04 teams

bird04 wrote:Agree that TSC in error in allowing Winters to hold his team out as the other "A" team at TSC. I think their record against Kitterman is something like 1 win (own goal by Kitterman player!), 1 tie, 10 or 11 losses. Better for all concerned if they were designated as the TSC "B" team and their one or two top players allowed to go to Kitterman, if they would... Again, we'll see what happens in the crazy season!   

I had no idea Kitterman/Winters had even played each other that much. I would have guessed maybe half of that. It would be nice if TSCH had some sort of published records somewhere for their intra-league. Thanks Bird04, I learned something new.

I have asked TSCH about the A/B thing, the response I got: 'we don't care about A/B teams at this age, we just want to develop'. Pretty much said at U14 ECNL is when it matters. They feel that kids develop differently at this age and as long as you have a group that is developing at the same rate, then you are good. I guess after all, they are only 10!!!

Does anyone know what Blitz does? Do they share the same philosophy? I know NTX does not!!!   

That record is over the last few years, I believe. Blitz has definite A and B teams and pull up from the B team at will. Better for player development (and recruitment of top talent!) for players to play with other girls who are as good or better, obviously. Odd thing for TSC to say with their ECNL thing, huh?

bird04 wrote:That record is over the last few years, I believe. Blitz has definite A and B teams and pull up from the B team at will. Better for player development  (and recruitment of top talent!) for players to play with other girls who are as good or better, obviously. Odd thing for TSC to say with their ECNL thing, huh?

Yes, very odd (and frustrating!), but history shows they have very little movement on the girls side. Winters players look to be all about the same developmentally. You have individual good and bad games at this age, but there really doesn't seem to be a big difference between player #1 and #12, IMO (not that they are ranked…) Others might argue with me on that, but that's my observation from the games practices I have watched. I need to check out some Blitz/Kitterman practices before the open practice's begin. Tryouts will be either very interesting, or very boring, right?

Agreed! One or the other!

Rumor has it that Kitterman 04 was designated the top 04 Girls team at TSC at the coaches meeting last night. Maybe some movement will occur after all....

First, this team will never go anywhere as long as Kitterman is coach. However, that will all be rectified when they turn U14 because Shubert is taking the best players no matter how long your DD has been with whatever team.
When Kitterman goes 11v11 and beats a good NTX team (Sting,Texans,Liverpool) then you can get excited.
Winters and Kitterman are both TSC! Who cares about A/B. My DD plays ECNL and we've had like a bagillion lineup changes. Relax and let your DD develop. The only people who really worry are parents who's DD is marginal and would get her spot taken by a player on Winters team. Bottom line is if your DD is potentially college material then you don't need worry. You'll be ECNL no matter what. THAT'S why you should be worried about development.

Wow! It feels like I just read six pages of TSC Kitterman04 propaganda. My decesion on who my daughter plays for ( Kitterman04, Winters04, Blitz 04, or anyother club) will not be based on a self designated or club designated title of # 1 team,, but rather how the coach has developed his/her players throughout the academy years. It is an important decesion we will all make for our daughters in a few weeks and all should do their homework first. By the way before you consider your team # 1 in Oklahoma you have to beat all the too oklahoma competition. Kitterman04 has yet to beat Blitz04 and Winters04 has not lost to Blitz04. I think your a little premature in claiming the #1 04 girls team in Oklahoma. It's still up for grabs. Maybe next season will answer the question - who is the best 04 team in Oklahoma?

TSCSOCCERDAD wrote:First, this team will never go anywhere as long as Kitterman is coach. However, that will all be rectified when they turn U14 because Shubert is taking the best players no matter how long your DD has been with whatever team.
When Kitterman goes 11v11 and beats a good NTX team (Sting,Texans,Liverpool) then you can get excited.
Winters and Kitterman are both TSC! Who cares about A/B. My DD plays ECNL and we've had like a bagillion lineup changes. Relax and let your DD develop. The only people who really worry are parents who's DD is marginal and would get her spot taken by a player on Winters team. Bottom line is if your DD is potentially college material then you don't need worry. You'll be ECNL no matter what. THAT'S why you should be worried about development.

Uh, what's DD?
Also, Kitterman has been 11v11 for some time now. Just to clarify. Additionally, they did just beat Sting Diaz twice to win the Prime Time tournament in Dallas this last weekend. They don't use 03's. They tied Dalgliesh in the fall. I could go on, but I'm not trying to irritate anyone here (though it appears I have!). Just thought this was a venue for exchanging viewpoints on soccer in OK.... I also would hope that anyone who felt that their daughter would benefit from a move to ANY team would consider it. Winters' team included. People's views of what a certain coach is like, when viewed from a rival or even other team, are often wrong. I know I was. For instance, Tony Winters SEEMS like a madman and often curses innappropriately, etc... But off the field, he's a very nice person and I KNOW he cares about his team and his girls on the field. I'm sure he'll do just fine developing his girls. One might want to extend the same humility to one's views of other coaches, too.

DD=Daughter
I guess I could have kept the coach comment to myself. He seemed like an odd fit after all the drama with the former coach and him and them... oh you know it all.
There seemed to be some inter club posturing that I don't understand. TSC Kitterman and Winters are the same club. What is the purpose for the A and B team? So Kitterman can win the 04 national championship.
I'll give you my OPINION on the question Winters/Kitterman should be A/B or who is number one and why it is a futile argument.
1. Once you reach ECNL U14 all the best players will be playing together anyway so why the rush to put them together now.
2. Go to the ECNL website and look at all the TSC teams standings. The 97,98,99 teams have all the best players in Tulsa and no team is in the top 2. The 00's may be last place.
3. Once you reach U14 if your DD is in ECNL you'll never hear about or play any other OK team again. So it doesn't matter if Blitz has the bestest team in all the land.

I'm not trying to suppress any opinion, just offering some perspective to Kitterman parents who have taken to this forum to crown Winter 04 unworthy. I have heard the posturing firsthand and don't understand it.

Would we like all the pieces in place right now and go down and shut 04G RASE up, YES! Would we like the girls to gel with each other now, BEFORE ECNL, and go into it strong, YES. Would we like the Winters team to be the sister/feeder team, that actually works together, at times practices together, travels together, interchanges players, etc YES!
And yes I agree at U14 all the top players will be combined, but consider this, your DD might be lapped by then due to the weekly competition both at our Kitterman practices AND who we challenge ourselves against at tournaments, extra scrimmages and league games. We play top 02 and 03 teams vs playing Springfield.

And DD means Dearest Daughter.

TSCSOCCERDAD wrote:

1. Once you reach ECNL U14 all the best players will be playing together anyway so why the rush to put them together now.

B/C:

a) the U14 ECNL team will better if the best girls have been playing together for a while.

b) training/playing with players of similar ability is better for development

c) having a dominant team at younger age groups can help with recruiting.

Of course, putting them together at an early age is fraught with problems too.  Players develop at different times/rates and yet too often players get "locked" into a slot.  Clubs need to provide excellent coaching throughout the levels so that the feeder teams are churning out quality players too.  Coaches need to coordinate efforts for the larger goal as opposed fighting to protect/better "their team"  This 04 group at TSC is large enough and talented enough to create something good, but I wouldn't bet on the Club getting it right--it seems none of them do.   

Agreed, Trojan. Look at the mess the 00 ECNL team is. If politics hadn't got in the way, and the best from the PLW team and the best from the ECNL team had been combined early, they wouldn't be the pitiful team they are now. MU's team should just replace them, as was done with George's team when he came over. Let's avoid that, hopefully, by combining the best early, as you say. My challenge to any Winters parents/players who are top tier is come to some Kitterman open practices before tryouts. See firsthand what's up. Don't rely on others, but see for yourself if it would be a good fit from a coach and player standpoint. Certainly none of you are afraid to do this? And if you are, ask yourself, why....?

I really don't see Winters being a feeder to Kitterman, and neither does TSCH. All kids develop at different speeds, no need to move anyone, especially if everyone is happy where they are. To develop, you need to have a good coach. The COACHES will move players if they think there is a better fit for them somewhere else. Nigh and Amos are working with their top players to get them on Winters/Kitterman teams, nobody is holding anyone back.

I have done my research with older groups and ECNL. With the merger it has taken a few years to get the right girls at the same club, 98, 99 and now 00 have come over from Blitz every year and made the U15 ECNL team better, that is what is happening with the 00 this year. It will be interesting to see what happens with the 01's this year, but I have heard that they already have the best girls at the club, so there won't be mass movement from Blitz next year. Same with the 02's, the 03's and soon the 04's. TSCH will eventually have all of the top players. There is nothing wrong with being at Blitz right now and then moving to TSCH later if ECNL is your goal, just go where it feels right, and not where someone is plugging. At this age (04) girls need to develop, if they are a good player they will be able to play on any team. When you go off to college you are expected to play on a team with all new players, same with HS ball. A good player can just play the game

This 04 group is very close in ability. I don't think anyone 'needs' to come to Kitterman practices to see for themselves, and nobody is afraid to. Did you ever think that maybe Winters parents and players aren't interested in Kitterman? You act like they aren't allowed to go there. They can do what they want. Unless Winters parents are lying to me, they don't look at Kitterman as a step up, they are happy where they are.

Shubert will get it right at U14/U15. This is also the age where you have a mass drop off, kids deciding to do something different. Your TOP player now will not be your TOP player in 4 years.

One last thing: Several Kitterman parents on here have said they have a 'full roster', I took that to mean they were not adding at tryouts, but these boards seem to be filled with them wanting Winters top players (and others) to go there. Is your roster 'full', or is it not?

bird04 wrote:Rumor has it that Kitterman 04 was designated the top 04 Girls team at TSC at the coaches meeting last night. Maybe some movement will occur after all....

Rumor. No 04 team was designated anything. Shubert said at U12 there would be a pre-ecnl team designated. There will be an all 04 meeting soon to discuss 04 teams and tryouts. Heard this from several coaches and directors that were at the meeting.

Looking to add one or two, as I understand it. It may be that no one is looking to move from Winters, and that's fine, too. I have heard that there is a pretty harsh "if you leave, don't come back!" policy there, however, which might scare people into not even looking or utilizing open practices. Maybe some Winters parents can speak to this. I won't claim it as fact at this point.
Agreed that there is no "de jure" pre-ECNL designation. My point is that, given inter-club jockeying and normal, understandable parental scheming, the meeting the other night was the beginning of the "de facto" designation of Kitterman as pre-ECNL. Again, who knows what the future holds?! Let's hope everyone gets to where they need to be for their enjoyment and development, in any case.
One last question. You seem to know a lot about TSC inner workings. As an observer, I would ask if Shubert has made all the ECNL picks so far? If so, given the state of the 99's before George and the 00's currently, why do you think he'll "get it right"? I'm not trying to be contentious, as he might have gotten every other ECNL "right", I'm just not knowledgeable on this topic to speak intelligently. Important, IMO, cuz will eventually affect our daughters...

I know that the 99 and 98 ecnl teams were not picked by Kerri. They were picked by George and JM respectively. ECNL is not for your team to be the best. It is a huge showcase for your DD to get looked at by college. TSC wants teams to be good so they can stay in good standing with the ECNL.
My advice is to get your daughter developed before ECNL because they won't get much while there. Most girls are commiting during their U15 year so your daughter has to be ready by then. There is a lot less politics in ECNL but not completely absent. Kerri runs the show and what he says goes. Your DD team will have players that don't belong. All teams do.

Gonzo The Great wrote:Wow! It feels like I just read six pages of TSC Kitterman04 propaganda.  My decesion on who my daughter plays for ( Kitterman04, Winters04, Blitz 04, or anyother club) will not be based on a self designated or club designated title of # 1 team,, but rather how the coach has developed his/her players throughout the academy years.  It is an important decesion we will all make for our daughters in a few weeks and all should do their homework first.  By the way before you consider your team # 1 in Oklahoma you have to beat all the too oklahoma competition.  Kitterman04 has yet to beat Blitz04 and Winters04 has not lost to Blitz04.  I think your a little premature in claiming the #1 04 girls team in Oklahoma. It's still up for grabs.  Maybe next season will answer the question - who is the best 04 team in Oklahoma?

So a few more pages and you should be indoctrinated huh?   

Trojan wrote:Would we like all the pieces in place right now and go down and shut 04G RASE up, YES!

Now this is a funny quote. Think you might need to look further than Tulsa.

bird04 wrote:Looking to add one or two, as I understand it. It may be that no one is looking to move from Winters, and that's fine, too. I have heard that there is a pretty harsh "if you leave, don't come back!" policy there, however, which might scare people into not even looking or utilizing open practices. Maybe some Winters parents can speak to this. I won't claim it as fact at this point.
Agreed that there is no "de jure" pre-ECNL designation. My point is that, given inter-club jockeying and normal, understandable parental scheming, the meeting the other night was the beginning of the "de facto" designation of Kitterman as pre-ECNL. Again, who knows what the future holds?! Let's hope everyone gets to where they need to be for their enjoyment and development, in any case.
One last question. You seem to know a lot about TSC inner workings. As an observer, I would ask if Shubert has made all the ECNL picks so far? If so, given the state of the 99's before George and the 00's currently, why do you think he'll "get it right"? I'm not trying to be contentious, as he might have gotten every other ECNL "right", I'm just not knowledgeable on this topic to speak intelligently. Important, IMO, cuz will eventually affect our daughters...

I was referring the the fact that he made the decisions based on the players he had. When ECNL was new, not all of the top players were at TSCH, and some (it's my understanding) weren't ready to jump ship just yet. When George came, and John Michael before him, they brought with them girls to mix with TSCH. Umelo this year. My statement that he will get it right moving forward is that MOST of the talented younger players will already be at TSCH. They are working out kinks every year. Kerry is running the show, but all ECNL coaches have input. I agree with TSCSOCCERDAD. Worry more about your daughter developing now, not what team she is on and who is on her team.

Also, no need IMO to even stress the girls out about Pre-ECNL, TOP team. They are 10 years old. It's important to keep it fun. I have personally seen very talented players burn out, and it's usually the parents that cause it. We all love our kids, but sometimes taking a look back, and advice from parents that have been there can be very beneficial. These forums don't need to be used to attack and start rumors, you even said 'inter club jockeying and normal parental scheming…' not all teams have parents like that, and some (with very talented players) will avoid teams with that reputation.

I remember with my older child that everyone was stressed out about state cup at U11… who even remembers who wins state cup at U11? It's just not the most important thing right now, IMO.

I will let Winters parents touch on the "if you leave, don't come back" comment, but if that is coming from the player that left for Kitterman last year, I would assume that is an isolated circumstance, and that situation is something where 'he said, she said, and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

SLsoccer wrote:

Trojan wrote:Would we like all the pieces in place right now and go down and shut 04G RASE up, YES!

Now this is a funny quote. Think you might need to look further than Tulsa.

If someone had a DD from South Lakes that could make our team and would travel each week, they would be welcomed with open arms. Doesn't matter what team or town, we want the best, want to play the best, and be the best. Both parents AND kids expect more on this team. This team is NOT for every DD, it is demanding. But your DD's skill improves because of it.

Not looking to drive 2 hours for U10 soccer. Just not sure if anyone wants to see another 9-0 snoozer.

SLsoccer wrote:Not looking to drive 4-hours one way to play on the "maybe" top team in Oklahoma. Just not sure if anyone wants to see another 9-0 snoozer.

That's funny. At that time, Kitterman team JUST started playing 11v11 (maybe our third or fourth game ever). Just finished tying the NTX #2? ranked Daglish team 1-1 two hours earlier with only one sub the entire day. Hot day, big field, girls were gassed...but no excuses. We took the loss and are striving to return the favor.

And was referring to South Lakes out of OKC. Go back to the NTX forums and troll elsewhere.

tscsoccerdad and letthekidsplay seem to have a good grasp on this topic. All this focus on who's the "A" team or "best team in OK" seems a little over blown. I get wanting your DD to play with top talent to help elevate their skills, but having them with a good coach and allowing them to grow and have FUN should be more of the focus.

Tbird04 wrote:Just to clarify again: Only one player went back to Blitz. More of a "role player", actually.  As far as the Manager for Kitterman cheering, he was actually scouting the game to see how the girls played so that come tryouts, he can have a handle on who would be a good fit for Kitterman, if they show up for open practices and tryouts. Didn't see him cheer for either team.

Bird,
Just admit it.........you must be the Kitterman manager. Funny how Kitterman would want to have his manager decide which new players might be a "good fit" for his team. I would think that Kitterman would have wanted to do the evaluations himself. I guess, though, that it is the more politically correct way of going about it. More funny, though, is the fact that the Kitterman manager believes he knows enough about youth soccer to feel that the coach should heed his advice in the first place.  Therein lies the real problem in youth sports today and that is the ever increasing presence of over zealous parents attempting to live vicariously through their child. Take a minute to step back and examine your child's team. The drama and events surrounding the parent group is legendary. It's truly crazy. Conversely, TW's team has not had any mid year defections due to soccer burnout at age 10 (wow), club mandated coaching changes, player bashing during games on the sidelines or cursing, for that matter, unless the words "bloody", "big Judy", and "are you serious" have become such. I'll give you that Kitterman has the best team as of now, but it is not as clear cut as you might think. If one or two girls from Kitterman actually came and played for the Winters team then the outcome would probably be reversed. One thing is for sure and that is that the cultures on the two teams are different.